If I am not mistaken, Max Lucado came late to OPERATON 68. That and other efforts have reversed the standing of the SPIRITISTS in Brazil. However, some were converted to SPIRITISTS and returned to attack the church of Christ--They BIT the hand that FED them. The system flowing out of ACU confesses to training CHANELLERS, PROPHETS and FACILITATORS to go out and HANDLE THE CHANGES.

Max confesses that he finds a topic, finds books which supports the view and then SIMPLIFIES. Of course, Max has always been more extreme than the Baptists who are UNIQUELY AMERICAN but founded on Gnosticism. That is the ONLY WAY a member of the church of Christ can make it BIG TIME selling books into the hands of denominational members who are the BIGGEST BOOK BUYING religious groups.

"CHRISTIANS" will always suffer for their faith and you cannot ASCEND INTO THE LIGHT of popularity with books or music until you have SOLD YOUR SOUL. Max denies that CHRIST came fully in the flesh.

In a television interview in Nashville, TN, July 2, 1997, Max Lucado caused Nashville churches to SELL THEIR SOUL by adopting MUSIC. They call it "HOLY THEATER." Because they confess to being POSTMODERN they can change the truth into a lie. They even brag about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING existing churches to make them SPIRITISTS.

MAX LUCADO WRITES: "I believe in baptism. Jesus was baptized. The Bible teaches baptism. I just don't believe that baptism saves you. I believe that Jesus Christ saves us. And baptism is one of those ways we CELEBRATE our salvation. It's really the initial step of the faithful believer."

KEN SUBLETT: "I believe that the shed blood of Jesus saves us: without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. Jesus insists that water baptism is the ANTI-TYPE or is the "INSTEAD of" the shedding of our own blood. Those who reject Baptism as the DIRECT COMMAND of Jesus reject His blood. Therefore, they will have to DIE for their own sins rather than letting Jesus be the INSTEAD OF literal death. THEIR BLOOD will still not SAVE them.

MAX LUCADO WRITES: "I really believe in FAITH. Jesus believed. The Bible teaches faith. I just don't believe FAITH SAVES you. I believe Jesus Christ saves us. And faith is one of those ways we celebrate our salvation. It's really the INITIAL STEP of the faithful believer."

Ken: But this is anti- Christian and anti- Biblical. Max denies faith, repentance, confession and Baptism. As GNOSTIC or CALVINIST, God picks those He wants and sends the LUCIFER- LIKE LIGHT into them. IF they do ANYTHING they are not worthy. Lucifer was the harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, the king/queen of Tyre, the king/queen of Babylon who went into Sheol with HER harps and harpists, and the end - times Babylon Harlot of Revelation 18.

PAUL: "But WITHOUT faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him: for he that COMMETH to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY seek him. Heb.11:6

THE GREEK: Ekzeteo (g1567) ek-zay-teh'-o; from 1537 and 2212; to search out, i.e. (fig.) investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebr.) worship: - en- (re-) quire, seek after (carefully, diligently).

John Calvin as perverted in the Baptist Gnosticism could not have said it better. "WITHOUT Faith it is impossible to come to Jesus." Neo-Calvinism says that God saves you by GIVING you the GIFT of FAITH. Paul says that faith comes by HEARING the Word of God. Paul is correct, Max Lucado repudiates Jesus who demanded that "belief which leads to baptism saves" because that is where Jesus PUT His saving power just as rationally as Christ put full Deity into a body of 75% water.

Baptist Believer's Baptism is an ancient PAGAN baptism. The FIRST death of Jesus was not GOOD ENOUGH. As the Catholics must have Jesus DIE for them in the MASS, Baptists believe that Jesus must come so that they CAN DIE with Jesus personally, or even BECOME CHRISTS themselves.

Therefore, Gnostics and Baptists believe that they are saved by supernatural access to GOD but deny everything that JESUS commanded for us to do. That is, they bypass the first century death of Jesus Christ. John Mark Hicks, a pal of both Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly warn that they may DENY THAT CHRIST CAME FULLY IN THE FLESH.

More later: Ken Sublett

a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believednot the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess. 2:11-12
Jeff - Beware of him who makes the lie look like truth and the truth look like a lie!
I
I feel it is not a good move for the Lord's body, to get into accomodations, whether those are geared towards members or non-members For the very reasons stated above! The assembly of the Saints is for the purpose of worship - not evangelism. I think we are becoming so lazy as individuals, about teaching the Gospel, that we are trying to make the church as a whole do what the individuals should be doing. And that is only one problem.

My question for you Jeff is where would you draw the line? You stated you are pro-moving away from the church of the past 50 years, so what else would you change and why? And How far would you go?

We are not supposed to give Satan a toehold - For adopting that stance we have been seen as rigid - But have we not learned from our history? Look at the gay/lesbian issue. Look at what the media has done, once the "toehold" was given - Now there is a "token" gay in every movie or sitcom!
So Oak Hills is not just changing the name on the sign, but is also adding instrument music to their worship - where will they go next?
Deborah (awing-and-aprayer)

First of all, they are adding an instrument to their SUNDAY NIGHT service. But, no matter, it is really not important. As far as worship goes, the Word talks about our WHOLE LIFE being worship.

Sunday mornings are not the only reserved time for that. Where do you get that Sunday mornings are for the worship of "the saints" as you call us? I see NOTHING in scripture about that.

All of you old foggies who seek to limit worship because of you traditional stances woudl have us believe that one thing leads to another and before we know it we have gay preachers or somthing like that.

There is a difference between holding to traditions that WE have created and simply changing our worship because of cultural differences. There is everything wrong with the former and nothing wrong with the later. Wake up and smell the coffee. The 50s brand church that you know is DIEING. Get on board the J train and come into the 21st century.

All of you that worship tradition will be left behind by God who seeks to move HIS church forward.

Just my 2 cents...

Jeff

if you think that the members of the Church of Christ are the only ones going to heaven, well you are sadly mistaken. Try reading John 17. Jesus will enlighten you a bit. Just a hint - He talks about ALL BELIEVERS.

just my opinion.

Jeff

"And an argument arose amongst them...." Luke 9:46-50. and Jesus said" Do not forbid him, for he that is not against you is for you" RS ("..for us" KJ). Jesus seems to be the only one able to determine who is for and who is against. Sure we are be on guard and stay away from those that would lead us astray. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world or so I'm told and so far I have not been convinced it is what I should be following. Being raised in the Church of Christ I could not ever figure out where the rules of church came from, I couldn't find all of them in any Bible version I have ever seen. Where was the "church of Christ" from about 350 AD to the 1800's? The restoration gave us what we are traditionalized on today. Is the church at Oak Hills beginning a new restoration or not? I love singing in the worship -I don't like pianos -they make too much noise and I have been to several services where this is used, so i'm not unexperienced. Can't stand to hear a person sing off key -it is bad as a piano, but I still can't find in the Bible where we are to sing in 4 part harmony... In Him , DSnow

354-430 Augustine of Hippo

"For the Jews slew Christ, lest they should lose their PLACE.

.."Christ slain, they lost their place. Rooted out of the kingdom were they, dispersed were they. He, raised up, requited them tribulation, He requited them unto admonition, not yet unto condemnation. For the city wherein the people RAGED, as a ramping and a roaring lion, crying out, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him," the Jews rooted out therefrom, hath now Christians, by not one Jew is inhabited.

..."There is planted the CHURCH of CHRIST, whence were rooted out the thorns of the synagogue. For truly this fire blazed "as the fire of thorns."

.."When we have to do with PAGANS, and show this coming to pass in the CHURCH of CHRIST, which before was predicted of the NAME of CHRIST, of the HEAD and BODY of CHRIST, lest they think that we have forged these predictions, and from things which have happened, as though they were future, had made them up, we bring forth the books of the Jews.

http://www.piney.com/MuAugPsa41.html

Catholic means universal. However, the Catholics called themselves the church of Christ. When Constantine gave favors to the church of CHRIST, they did exactly what once church of Christs are doing. The preachers FOR THE FIRST TIME were paid and the Pagan priests came flocking into the church to become PRIESTS. The church became a SEEKER church and added pagan practices such as candles and MUSIC.

FROM THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

"We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in PAGAN WORSHIP and in the RITES paid to the DEAD. (RE AMOS 5, 6)

"But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to ENHANCE the splendour of religious CEREMONIAL. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like MUSIC, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc.

.."were not identified with ANY IDOLATROUS cult in particular;

....THEY WERE COMMON TO ALMOST ALL CULTS.

TO FULFILL REVELATION 18 ON THE BABYLON HARLOT WE SEE THAT HISTORY DOES REPEAT ITSELF.

Ken Sublett.

Comments:

> I am not an "anything goes" person of the church. I do think fundamental salvational doctrine should be continued. But to put "rules" and impose our personal beliefs and opinions on others about the name on a building, instruments, and evangelistic methods is exactly what Christ came to this earth to abolish... legalism; human rules and regulations. He came to give us the freedom of His grace when He lives in us.

=====================================

But MAX clearly goes beyond the Baptist GNOSTICISM and repudiates faith, repentance, confession and baptism as having ANYTHING to do with salvation.

You must grasp that the Promise Keepers Shepherding or Discipling Dilema, as well as the Purpose Driven Cult insists that the BIBLE AS TRUTH and the entire CHRISTENDOM era came to an end about the year Y2K. Max has followed the PATTERN and has established a PASTORAL GROUP for San Antonio in keeping with Promise Keepers plan to include all NEW truth and all NEW religion in an ECUMENICAL, know nothing but Charismatic religion.

Because Max speaks in tongues and claims to be a prophet and got a VISION for this radical sowing of discord (He got it out of Coach McCartney's Play book), NO ONE dares oppose him. Sorry, but Max writes FICTION which repudiates the Word of God and that is OK because we live in the POST-CHRISTENDOM ERA.

It is EXACTLY Max Lucado who IMPROVIZED "rules" and IMPOSED his PERSONAL beliefs and opinions on OTHERS about the NAME on a BUILDING, INSTRUMENTS, and EVANGELISTIC methods. So, why are you blaming others for what MAX is doing? Max in speaking and writing directs his views to the feminine side and lacks any LOVE FOR THE WORD which is said by a Nun to be the MASCULINE form of religion.

Jesus condemned the SECTARIANS of his day and especially the Pharisees (stealers of houses of widows now expanded to stealing CHURCH HOUSES of widows), Scribes (book peddlers of untruth) and HYPOCRITES. The Hypocrites were SECTS in the Greek and Jewish world. They were performance speakers, singers and musicians. They are the SORCERERS in the end time religon of Revelation 18 and they were ALL identified as PARASITES.

The same Athenian authorities who controlled the Flute- players (prostitutes) also controlled the DUNG HEAP and the CEMETARY. That is exactly why Jesus cast the Musical Team out just as one EJECTS DUNG.

So, Bible 101aaa could never see MUSIC as coming from anyone but LUCIFER who brought wind, string and percussion instruments into the Garden of Eden (the story of the King/Quees of Tyre and Babylon and the end time harlot church of Revelation 18)

SO it is MAX and his ditto head in Nashville who is IMPOSING on others WITHOUT A VOTE exactly what Jesus repudiated when the "musical children of the marketplace, (CDs, False Books, etc) PIPED (as in prostitute) to try to get Jesus to sing and dance the Dionysus, perverted choral which was the RELIGION of the Jerusalem Clergy inherited from the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place which was a TYPE of the body or church of Christ.

It is happening again and by depending too much on the emotional smothering of reading Max, people have LOST THEIR EYES AND EARS and Jesus does not speak to them anymore. Max, came back from Brazil with more SPIRITISTS (Voodoo) and he left the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST in Brazil. I have posted an index of reviews: Max REPUDIATES anything claimed by the BIBLE and submits his own FICTIONAL views as its replacement. He sounds like Lucian of Samosata's SPACE TRAVEL and telling about how ALEXANDER THE ORACLE MONGER knew that you could "spin a top (to get a message from the whizzing) and play the flute and steal the wealth of the FAT HEADS AND SIMPLETONS.

http://www.piney.com/Lucado.Index.html

I have reviewed MAX'S (and only Max's) VISION for a denomination with him as head of the MOTHER CHURCH showing that this is fulfilled prophecy.

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Creed.html

Phil has used the absolute demand that HE TESTS THE SPIRITS and shows from the Bible that both Max and Jesus cannot BOTH be correct. Furthermore, don't try to deprive Phil of his first ammendment rights: that is the FIRST way that those who are SHOOTING YOU IN THE HEART try to INTIMIDATE and head off any SASSING OF CELESTIAL BEINGS by blaming Phil for bleading on Maxs' dancing slippers.

I have added some research to show that it is the prophesied HARLOT CHURCH and the fruition of the PROMISE KEEPERS cult to get ALL CHURCHES under HER wing. Remember, that the REMNANT will be so tiny that it probably cannot even be seen as it is chased out of the TEMPLES OF DOOM and "outside the city" where Jesus promises to meet us while the MUSICIANS make up their shipment to warmer climates. [That is supportable]

This has total BIBLICLAL and HISTORICAL authority and you CANNOT find Jesus giving GRACE to violate His explicit commandments often in PARABLES which the Maxes cannot see or hear. Didn't He leave a million people ignorant (by their own religion) to die as the temple, like all temples, are torn down brick by brick to prove that you cannot FACILITATE an access to God in temples madw tih hands. A million people perished but of those who obeyed the GO not a single believer got BURNED UP.

Jesus didn't say I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH but I WILL BUILD MY SYNAGOGUE. The synagogue which He attended HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE because it was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. At the same time, He tore down and continues to tear down TEMPLES made with human hands to worship with human hands in the RELIGIOUS sense.

Jesus would insist that all of that STAFF INFECTION be fired and the money used to send evangelists who would LOVE to go out if the MEGA CHURCHES had not stolen all of the money. Jesus said GO.

Ken Sublett

Kenny, again you never cease to amaze me with your non sensical diatribes. YOU DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE. You claim Promise Keepers is a cult..PROVE IT! Have you ever been to a PK meeting? Do you know Max Lucado personally? All these are necessary for you to spout off like you do. You need a little more time in the sanitarium my backwoods friend.

You do not help your cause with your blusterings, you only show how big of a fool you really are.

JeffD

I truly am speechless at how so many have come to believe that "doing" Christianity "right" requires a scholarly view of New Testament Christianity. Christ did not come for just the intelligent and learned, he came for EVERYONE. Do you really think someone has to understand the rhetoric you have above to be a SAVED follower of Christ? Christ came to simplify the written code, and he asked only for people to put their faith in Him and follow Him until the end. (And, yes, I believe that includes public confession of Christ as Savior and baptism by immersion.) Max Lucado aside, your view of the church and all that it takes for those in the church to be RIGHT, and so to be saved, is derived from emotions of pride and ego... the need to have much knowledge and make it your campaign for others to know that you have it "right". Most people in the church that believe this way grew up in a similar, legalistic environment, and seem to become more passionate about proving their opinion right than about loving and following Christ, and certainly more than loving their neighbors (which is everyone). I find through personal observation that the more legalistic a person becomes, anger and bitterness and even hate usually increase in the soul proportionately. It's interesting to me that those persons who hold to the more "simple" views of Christianity that you would consider far from truth, are much brighter lights of Christ's love in this world.

I am TRULY speechless that apparently you consider anyone who listens to instruments or plays an instrument to be sorcerers and parasites, including children. And I have no idea where the backup research is for your rather bold and hateful opinion of Max Lucado. I clicked on your above links, and it's just more rhetoric similar to yours above. I respectfully assert that your OPINION is not proof of your claims.

This is not a personal attack. As a matter of fact, I know many people who hold your views, and I used to be one of them to a degree. However, the more personal my relationship becomes with Christ, the more un-truthful some of the traditional beliefs of our church become to me. Moving away from church being something you "do" with a definite routine and predictability, to an experience of communing continually with Christ, has made me see the difference in what are our traditions and man-made routines and practices, and in what are the true teachings of Christ. I believe that the inspired Word of God could have been a very short book if He had intended for us to have a checklist from which to live our lives (much like The Ten Commandments). Instead, He intended for us to have many examples of how He would have us live our lives based on how He lived His on this earth. He sees what's in our hearts, and I believe it is by that standard that we will be judged on the final day.

My heart truly aches for all of the members of the church who are imprisoned with so many regulations and “to do” lists to make sure they’re right with God. And that is not meant to be patronizing, truly. I know from personal experience that the more animosity and resentment and bitterness you have in your heart, the less room there is for Jesus there. It takes our focus off of Christ, and puts it back on self. He asked us to give up "self" for Him.

Let's agree to disagree. It's a shame that we can not all realize that everyone will never agree on all form or tradition, and that Christ never taught us to worship and serve him in that way, with restrictive ceremonies or routine. I, honestly, am sincerely astounded that we cannot see that Satan is smiling at us, and Christ is greatly saddened.

This will be my only reply to your post. Feel free to post again, however, if you'd like. I am not interested in arguing or having a theological debate. I believe that is also frowned upon by Christ. Anyway, I'm off to a ship to cruise the Caribbean for the next week... I pray that we can ALL (including myself) check our hearts continually to see if we find there divisiveness, or love; self, or Christ. I pray also that we may find peace in our own beliefs, and reserve an attitude of bold judgment of the saved or not saved to the only Judge that counts. May God bless you as a believer in Christ.

Music AS WORSHIP is the topic. The entire Bible takes MUSIC off the list and theologians understood why. Too bad that the SINGY-CLAPPY guys don't let someone teach the basics. Here is one commentator and there is NO exception:

Tertullian, c. 155-220? De Spectaculis

http://www.piney.com/WinTertDeSpec.html

Chapter XXVIII. Christians Mourn While the World Rejoices. Circe was the holy whore who gave her name to CHURCH. On the other hand, Jesus founded a School of the Bible. Only the pagan temples CALLED people in with effeminate music which John promises will return to Sheol.

With such dainties as these let the devil's guests be feasted. The places and the times, the inviter too, are theirs. Our banquets, our nuptial joys, are yet to come. We cannot sit down in fellowship with them, as neither can they with us. Things in this matter go by their turns.
..Now they have gladness and we are troubled.
...."The world," says Jesus, "shall rejoice; ye ....shall be sorrowful." (John xvi. 20)
..Let us mourn, then, while the heathen are merry,
....that in the day of their sorrow we may rejoice;
..lest, sharing now in their gladness,
....we share then also in their grief. Thou art too DAINTY,

Comment: Jesus is the Captain of our souls and the ONLY teacher when the elders "teach that which has been taught." He promises to be with two or three gathered in HIS name:

..For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:10

The disciples follows in the foot steps of their Captain and worship leader. Remember that the major reason for the assembly was to teach the WORD and to GIVE HEED to Jesus by the Lord's Supper where we remember and preach HIS DEATH. When He meets with us it is not to do whoopy or wow "worship" but:

..Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. Heb 2:12
....And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Heb 2:13

The church is the ekklesia or Synagogue of Christ. There was no praise in the synagogue but TEACHING that which is written:

..Apaggello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.
....Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggeållo, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

If Jesus is singing with us this is what it will be;

..Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeåo, (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling

Tertullian again: Christian, if thou wouldst have pleasure in this life as well as in the next; nay, a fool thou art, if thou thinkest this life's pleasures to be really pleasures. The philosophers, for instance,
..give the name of pleasure to QUIETNESS and REPOSE; in that they have their bliss; in that they find entertainment: they even glory in it.

....Jesus died to give us REPOSE:
........Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mt.11:28
.......Anapauo (g373) an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to repose (lit. or fig. [be exempt], remain); by impl. to refresh: - take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest.

..You long for the goal, and the STAGE, and the DUST, and the place of COMBAT!

....The burden laded by CIRCE or the CHURCH or clergy is:
........Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety): - lade, be heavy laden.

I would have you answer me this question: Can we not live without pleasure, who cannot but with pleasure die? For what is our wish but the apostle's, to leave the world, and be taken up into the fellowship of our Lord? (Phil. i. 23.)
..You have your joys where you have your longings.

Chapter XXIX. Freedom From Pleasure, Exorcism, False Literature which Replaces the Bible

Ken Sublett

I have good news and bad news: the good news pronounced by Max is this:

Bro. L's concept of grace is so strong that if a man is "given only the TESTIMONY of CREATION, then he has enough" (p. 23). That means that some can be saved without knowing Christ, or the message of the Bible simply by "know(ing) God through he handiwork of nature" (Ibid.) John Waddey

"Bro. L's boat can accommodate such interesting beliefs as "once saved always saved," predestination, premillennialism, speaking in tongues, clerical robes, etc. In explaining who is to be accepted on God's ship (church) he says, "The Master says examine the person's faith. If he or she has faith in Jesus and is empowered by God, grace says that's enough" (p. 168).

THE BAD NEWS.

The evidence of Creation simply leaves people WITHOUT EXCUSE.

He delights in sarcastic allusions to people like us. "If I read my Bible, have the right opinion on the right doctrines, if I join this movement..." (p. 12). This is a line from his portrait of those he classes as legalists. He goes on to describe those who strive to please God by obeying his will as having "a religious godlessness." (Ibid.). He paints us as boasting about our "five steps" (p. 6) while we stand "knee deep in the water" trying to save ourselves (p. 5). John Waddey.

Max is just Biblically literate enough to, in Paul's words, "fool the fools." Of course, San Antonio is blessed beyond Paradise: Lynn Anderson who seems to know little Bible and believe less has teamed up to INFILTRATE and DIVERT and "steal church houses of widows" to make up their new denomination without having to do it the OLD FASHIONED WAY: buy your own. That is so cute, so postmodern. Here is an index of some Lynn Anderson Research:

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

Hay, don't go spilling your guts even if you DO have a brand new, STORE BOTTEN, Shepherding or Discipling Dilema minister riding on the backs of widows and the hard working "audience." Local kid tried to pet the tail of a purely beautiful Copperhead: yep, viper turned and stung him. Someone tell the elders who broke down the walls to the sheepfold that they are goners and the world is just gonna laught at them if they pretend to be the SHEPHERDS of the Flock when everyone knows that the HIRELINGS have turned the SHEPHERDS into tools and fools.

Ken Sublett

Ken, I know that you may find it hard that someone will actually disagree with you, but let's talk about the way things actually are in a world of reality. First, I am a member of Oak Hills.
Second, the Elders, along with members of the staff, undertook a year long study on the issue of instrumental music. The ELDERS concluded as they did, not Max with a gun to their heads. In fact, Max was not a part of the study.
Third, Max does not speak in tongues. I do not know if your quotation of Max supposedly speaking in tongues is one of your erotic fantasies or supposed to be fact. If you contend that it is factual, then I will be the first to call you a LIAR.

Get your facts straight and quit your suppositions which only make you look foolish.

Tom

Max returned from Brazil and got lumped in with Don Finto who, I believe, lost his grip and went to Roswell. He got a vision that HE was THE leader: even claims to be an apostle over OTHER churches. Does that sound like San Antonio? It is all secret but I think there are several who have ANNOINTED one another as 13th apostles. Much of this was PK Atlanta where the CLERGY got STUNG by the vipers and just threw away the Bible.

Your STAFF has NO AUTHORITY to take over the roles of the BODY: Elders are circumscribed to "teach that which has been taught" and to "rebuke those who oppose it." They are the God-ordained Pastor- teacher who along with the Deacons are the teachers of the flock. Paul assumed that they were "more APT to be Bible scholars than APT to chase a coon."

The STAFF brought the INFECTION with them and make the decisions: make no mistake about it and they know who butters their UNLAWFUL "crust of bread."

If the STAFF made the decision why is their WHITE PAPER so much like that of Farmer's Branch which LIES about every "musical" passage in the Bible. They just can't be that IGNORANT of the bible and 2,000 years of SCHOLARLY comment which is ANTI- INSTRUMENTAL and universally associates MUSIC with religious prostitutes and sodomites. It began when Lucifer (she/he) led the revolt and came into the garden of Eden with wind, string and percussion instruments. She is the harp- playing prostitute as the king/queen of Tyre, harps and harpists go back into Sheol as the king/queen of Babylon and SHOWS UP about now as APOLLYON who digs up the LOCUSTS who were the LEGENDARY Muses now stinging with their scorpion tails which bring on a deadly plague with running sores.

Just waiting for a bite:

http://www.piney.com/LucadoDobbsTongues.html

There is a link to the EAR WITNESS and he has the tapes which MARK the sowing of discord in Nashville led by STAFF which as "rhetoricians (slick speakers), sOPHISts (serpents, sorcerers in Revelation), singers, musicians and CRAFTSMEN. Jesus pointed to the SECTARIAN LEGALISTS as Pharisees (steals church houses of widows), Scribes (book writers fictionalizing the Word) and HYPOCRITES. These were singers, actors and musicians. The Greek knows them as SPONGERS or TOADEATERS who acted as mantic prophesiers (as in Corinth). Because they ATE and consumed the WIDOW'S livlihood they were UNIVERSALLY identified as PARASITES.

THE ELDERS ARE FLAT WRONG: there is NO music word connected with the people's worship in the entire Bible. The TEMPLE as well as the Law was added because of transgression (musical idolatry) at Mount Sinai. The people's congregation, assembly (Qahal Synagogue) was ordained in the wilderness and was the EKKLESIA (not church) in the wilderness where any loud sounds (not music) and "making a joyful noise before the Lord was outlawed.

The sacrificial system added because God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host--including Saturn or Chiun whose number was 666--BECAUSE of their musical idolatry and later the ELDERS fired God and demanded a king like the nations (dominant king/queen). He warned that the kings would DESTROY them including confiscating the young boys to make instruments of Chariots to BLOW the common people out of the way.

The CURSE God pronounced on them was that the kings (given in His anger and taken away in his anger) would force the people to TITHE and he would take the property and give it to his STAFF INFECTION or cronnies. This CURSE sounds just like the KING in churches who builds a PYRAMIDAL structure (See Richland Hills). There, A HIRED MINISTER (deacons) is attached to the ELDER IN CHARGE. The deacons who have outreach teaching authority with the elders are fired and replaced with ameniable DEACONESSES.

IF YOUR ELDERS REACHED THE CONCLUSION THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE TO PROHIBITE MUSIC AS WORSHIP THEY ARE UNDER CONTROL OF THE STAFF WHO SUPERVISES THEM. THEY GET BY WITH IT BECAUSE PEOPLE "DO NOT DARE" QUESTION THE leader who GETS VISIONS but which comes out of the PK "fool the fools playbook." No. They got it from the LEADERS at Farmer's Branch.

If the elders made the decision then why did Max say that taking Christ off the sign, repudiating baptism and anything but just acknowledging the god of creation of "calling God your father," and a VISION to add instrumental music (which had already been introduced like heating the water to boil a frog.)

If YOU knew what was going on then the CHANGE agenda would not be working, would it.

Ken

Ken, Oak Hills is led by 15 of the most humble servants of God that you could meet. They spend countless hours meeting together dealing with all of the issues that arise in a 4000 (and rapidly growing) member church. All of the men come from a church of Christ background, and, ironically, most come from extremely conservative backgrounds.

When studying the issue of instrumental music, they drew greatly on the biblical knowledge and expertise of Charles Prince, a retired former minister of Oak Hills who has been a church of Christ minister since the 1950's. Charles is a brilliant man who has greatly blessed the congregation since his retirement 10 years ago.

Unlike what you say, the STAFF has not taken over the BODY. But what the Elders HAVE done is continue to grow and learn from sources available as to what the Bible teaches. Have you reached a point that you have all knowledge in your head or do you continue to grow and learn?

Actually, the name change was pushed largely by a (now retired) elder named David Carpenter. Dave comes from an "anti" background and was an elder at Oak Hills for probably 20 years. He and his wife, Charlene, are great servants of the Lord and have reached many people for the Lord and have raised Godly children. Dave and Charlene moved into a new housing area a few years back and made the effort to knock the door of every home in their new neighborhood and invite their neighbors to services with them. (This was around 100 homes.) By far, the greatest response they received was that the neighbors were thankful they stopped by, but because of the name "church of Christ" associated with their church, the neighbors would not visit. Some of the neighbors related very frightful encounters with members of the "church of Christ" in the past. So they began thinking, what can Oak Hills do to remove this impediment to people coming to services at Oak Hills. This is where the idea started, not Max as you incorrectly assumed.

By the way, I believe that the study on baptism found on the church's website, www.oakhillschurchofchrist.org hits the nail on the head as far as biblical teaching on baptism. Don't make it something that it is not, but do not dilute the power and necessity for it.

If you are quoting some supposed tape of Max speaking in tongues you are again WRONG. (Much like many of your other assumptions.) Perhaps you should take the time to leave your home, come to San Antonio, and visit with Max. I will even buy you dinner. And, do not come back with this "Max is unreachable." Max is the most accessible (and humble, as a matter of fact) person that I know. Especially given his schedule. It is very easy to demonize someone from a distance that you have never even met. Agree or disagree with the decisions, there are legitimate reasons and rationale for each one. I have spoken to Max about Don Finto and he does not know where he comes up with being an "apostle". He said if that is what he thinks then he is "wrong." Perhaps you should also try to find the truth before you continue to spread your false rumors.

For example, the Oak Hills building is located on Interstate 10 in a nicer area of San Antonio. When we moved to this location, we moved our food and clothing ministry (which now serves 1000 families per month) to a mostly abandoned inner city church of Christ facility. We have recently purchased 6 acres of land in their community to construct a larger food and clothing facility as well as provide a building for worship services and bible study. Oh, forgot to mention that as a direct result of this outreach ministry, over 100 have been baptized (you know, that thing you claim we have eliminated) into Christ, but because of transportation issues most of these people are squeezed into a small room for Sunday services in Spanish at the inner city facility.

Finally, one last thing on the name. There will be something added on the name which reflects the name of Christ. (Much like many other churches of Christ across the country who are attempting to reach the lost.) A final decision on that has not been made and if you drive I 10 today, you will still see Church of Christ. Of course, our biggest problem is facility size. We have not enough parking spaces and not enough seating spaces in the auditorium. Between second and third service yesterday, no parking spaces were left available on our property.

I am curious of two things, Ken. Do you attend services at a congregation of the Lord's people? If so, which congregation. Second, do they have these problems?

In the worship bulletin for the Oak Hills Church of Christ (Max Lucado, pulpit minister) on September 5, 1999, (when their guest speaker was Buckner Fanning, of the Trinity Baptist Church in San Antonio) the following was printed:
"After many months of careful study and consideration,
.....the elders UNANIMOUSLY concluded that there is no Biblical prohibition of the use of mechanical instruments in worship. The same background says that they agreed by CONSENSUS. This is not ethical: 10 vote for, 9 against. The 9 have sold their soul to become an elder and agree to violate their conscience and vote with the ten. That is how you get the word UNANIMOUSLY. I would say that there is considerable DIVISION among the elders and that which they agreed to came to PASS too fast being boosted along with a VISION

Sorry Tom but godly elders cannot be elders and come up with a conclusion which is OPPOSED by 100% of the Bible and documentation. Not even the Catholics presumed to get authority for NON-MASS instruments (their true worship) from the Bible. They were "common to all pagan cults. I have reviewed the elders report and one could ANTICIPATE that this was a slow injection of Poison which, by Lynn Anderson's warning, may take ten years to work.

http://www.piney.com/Oak.Hills.Music.html

TOM now blames Charles Prince and Max Lucado praises Charles Prince:

Max Lucado: This was a major move and we came to it CAUTIOUSLY. I remember Charles Prince preaching on the topic of Christian unity and urging us to "not consult our fears."

You don't have to slither up to any BIBLICAL practice. In 2003 Max has a VISION to carry out the "prophetic statement of error" from the elders and STAFF.

Max Lucado: God calls us to do the same. Over the last few months, I've SENSED our Master URGING us to expand our dreams for San Antonio. He calls us to a fresh VISION: a vision of a city-impacting church.

NOW, TOM, HERE IS THE ORIGIN: NOT THE ELDERS.

...As the details of this VISION crystallized for me, I shared them with our ELDERS.
......They prayed, pondered, and tested the ideas and, ultimately saw them as God's will for Oak Hills.

So, it was left to MAX LUCADO to use psychological violence by claiming a vision to introduce what had been intended all along and had been cautiously or cunningly slipped in.

Max Lucado: "Recognizing the POWER of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches HEARTS.

As Rubel Shelly provided a "VENUE FOR ROCK AND ROLL" that "F" word, they all know that VOODOO reaches hearts: just like the MELODY arrows of Apollo reached real hearts.

THIS IS FULFILLMENT OF END TIMES PROPHECY. Melody or PSALLO as related to BOWS, ARROWS and harps (zithers, twanging bowstrings) the meaning is

Psallô [psaô = to grind to powder]

I. to touch SHARPLY, to PLUCK, PULL, TWITCH, Aesch.; toxou (arrows) neuran ps.
..to TWANG the bow-string, Eur.; BELOS ek KERAOS
--to send a shaft TWANGING from the BOW
..a carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then suddenly let go, so as to LEAVE a MARK

And only LATER to sing to a harp:

II. to play a stringed instrument with the FINGERS, NOT with the PLECTRON,

This is because PSALLO in the external sense means to TWANG the string with your fingers to SEND a "singing arrow" into the heart to KILL.

The expression: BELOS ek KERAOS ps.

belos [ballô, as Lat. jaculum from jacio] (Jesus ejected the Musical Minstrels like dung)

1. a missile, esp. an ARROW, dart, bolt,
2. like enchos, used of any WEAPON, as a SWORD, Ar.: an axe, Eur. (Paul=Lifeless instrument or Carnal WeaponS)

IF YOU CLAIM THE INSTRUMENT IS IN PSALLO OR MELODY THEN YOU CONFESS THAT YOU ARE THE END-TIME APOLLYONS WHO SHOOTS HIS REAL ARROWS WITH HIS FINGERS -- NEVER, NEVER WITH A PLECTRON.

Remember that Max Lucado after his VISION: "As the details of this VISION CHRYSTALLIZED for ME, I shared them with our elders.
....They prayed, pondered, and TESTED the ideas and, ultimately saw them as God's will for Oak Hills.

But they DID NOT, COULD NOT HAVE searched the Scriptures. If you can PRAY for new revelation then Jesus the Christ (full Deity) died in vain. Elders are commanded to "teach that which has been taught." I suspect that they know that Max has them by sensitive places: Max leaves and, Ooops! there goes Oak Hills which has been the TROUBLER in Zion for half a century: just in time for the end times.

Both Paul and Peter wrote their EYE WITNESS events and their encounter with Jesus Christ. They CLAIMED that the Word had been validated by the SUPERNATURAL SIGNS. Therefore, if you FOLLOW anything not recorded for our instruction you OPEN the sheep fold and allow the WOLVES or false prophets to get in. IT IS AN absolute MARK of a false prophet to go beyond what is written.

Under the penalty of violating the command to GIVE AN ANSWER for all of the sowing of Discord, either Charles Prince, the elders, or Max Lucado MUST give account by letting us read Charles vision which contradicts everything written from the Fall from heaven to the end-time Babylon harlot loaded up by STAFF INFECTION which infects a plague using craftsmen, singers, musicians, and instrumentalISTS.

The PsalmODIA, fluteISTS, harpISTS are the sorcerers in the book of Revelation. Without exception, the Greek world identifies them as PARASITES along with the rhetoricians who care less for the Word as it has been written.

I directed you to the site which DOES NOT LIE:

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#three

Rusty said, "Uh, if you could first pray for me, because ... ah ... you know ... the TONGUES is his, not mine. And, uh, and when the "SPIRIT of PROPHECY" comes upon me I have to STEP BCK and let the Holy Spirit worketh [sic] in me. So if you could just EXTEND YOUR FAITH towards me and just ask God for his perfect word to RISE up in me (voice, We do).

And your doing it. Gotta see it from your perspective- not ours. And so the Lord says, I am doing a GOOD THING. The Lord said, I've had MY hand upon this CHURCH for many, many years. O. many, many years. I've brought thee through suffering. I've brought thee through persecution. I've brought thee through changes. I've brought thee through REORGANIZATION (with Don Finto as the sole leader). I've brought thee through the very depths of hell many times. But I was faithful.

Max Lucado came as a PROPHET to pronounce his blessing on Don Finto and his organization claiming to be THE apostle for all of the churches. ASK MAX.

Our Ear Witness: "Now, fast-forward to April 22, 1997. The scene: A Nashville Hotel banquet room. The purpose: To get Nashville ready of the 1997 JUBILEE. The chairman of the meeting: Rubel Shelly, preacher for the Woodmont Hills Church in Nashville. The speaker: MAX LUCADO, preacher for the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio. An honored guest: DON FINTO, preacher for the Belmont Church in Nashville.
....The speaker of the hour, Max Lucado, in his introduction, said, "Don Finto is my HERO." So, there you have Shelly, Lucado, and Finto-birds of a feather flocking together. These men-Shelly and Lucado-are either as much of a goose as Finto, or they are laughing in their sleeves. I cannot tell which. In either case, it is inexcusable."

Max blew it in 1997 and I got out of the doghouse after a decade of crying "wolf."

http://www.piney.com/ WinBapt.html

No one doubts that you baptize but EVERYONE knows that it is not remotely CHRISTIAN BAPTISM. It is the Baptist or Pagan Believer's Baptism as, in the words of Max, A "PLEDGE" to God that you will be GOOD! Like, Wow.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

I have updated the New VISION Max had. He claims to choose words VERY CAREFULLY. Therefore, it is more than interesting that the key words Max uses could not have been better chosen by Abaddon himself. Many of them are CONTROL words.

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Creed.html

Ken Sublett

In the worship bulletin for the Oak Hills Church of Christ (Max Lucado, pulpit minister) on September 5, 1999, (when their guest speaker was Buckner Fanning, of the Trinity Baptist Church in San Antonio) the following was printed:
"After many months of careful study and consideration,
.....the elders UNANIMOUSLY concluded that there is no Biblical prohibition of the use of mechanical instruments in worship. The same background says that they agreed by CONSENSUS. This is not ethical: 10 vote for, 9 against. The 9 have sold their soul to become an elder and agree to violate their conscience and vote with the ten. That is how you get the word UNANIMOUSLY. I would say that there is considerable DIVISION among the elders and that which they agreed to came to PASS too fast being boosted along with a VISION

Sorry Tom but godly elders cannot be elders and come up with a conclusion which is OPPOSED by 100% of the Bible and documentation. Not even the Catholics presumed to get authority for NON-MASS instruments (their true worship) from the Bible. They were "common to all pagan cults. I have reviewed the elders report and one could ANTICIPATE that this was a slow injection of Poison which, by Lynn Anderson's warning, may take ten years to work.

http://www.piney.com/Oak.Hills.Music.html

TOM now blames Charles Prince and Max Lucado praises Charles Prince:

Max Lucado: This was a major move and we came to it CAUTIOUSLY. I remember Charles Prince preaching on the topic of Christian unity and urging us to "not consult our fears."

You don't have to slither up to any BIBLICAL practice. In 2003 Max has a VISION to carry out the "prophetic statement of error" from the elders and STAFF.

Max Lucado: God calls us to do the same. Over the last few months, I've SENSED our Master URGING us to expand our dreams for San Antonio. He calls us to a fresh VISION: a vision of a city-impacting church.

NOW, TOM, HERE IS THE ORIGIN: NOT THE ELDERS.

...As the details of this VISION crystallized for me, I shared them with our ELDERS.
......They prayed, pondered, and tested the ideas and, ultimately saw them as God's will for Oak Hills.

So, it was left to MAX LUCADO to use psychological violence by claiming a vision to introduce what had been intended all along and had been cautiously or cunningly slipped in.

Max Lucado: "Recognizing the POWER of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches HEARTS.

As Rubel Shelly provided a "VENUE FOR ROCK AND ROLL" that "F" word, they all know that VOODOO reaches hearts: just like the MELODY arrows of Apollo reached real hearts.

THIS IS FULFILLMENT OF END TIMES PROPHECY. Melody or PSALLO as related to BOWS, ARROWS and harps (zithers, twanging bowstrings) the meaning is

Psallô [psaô = to grind to powder]

I. to touch SHARPLY, to PLUCK, PULL, TWITCH, Aesch.; toxou (arrows) neuran ps.
..to TWANG the bow-string, Eur.; BELOS ek KERAOS
--to send a shaft TWANGING from the BOW
..a carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then suddenly let go, so as to LEAVE a MARK

And only LATER to sing to a harp:

II. to play a stringed instrument with the FINGERS, NOT with the PLECTRON,

This is because PSALLO in the external sense means to TWANG the string with your fingers to SEND a "singing arrow" into the heart to KILL.

The expression: BELOS ek KERAOS ps.

belos [ballô, as Lat. jaculum from jacio] (Jesus ejected the Musical Minstrels like dung)

1. a missile, esp. an ARROW, dart, bolt,
2. like enchos, used of any WEAPON, as a SWORD, Ar.: an axe, Eur. (Paul=Lifeless instrument or Carnal WeaponS)

IF YOU CLAIM THE INSTRUMENT IS IN PSALLO OR MELODY THEN YOU CONFESS THAT YOU ARE THE END-TIME APOLLYONS WHO SHOOTS HIS REAL ARROWS WITH HIS FINGERS -- NEVER, NEVER WITH A PLECTRON.

Remember that Max Lucado after his VISION: "As the details of this VISION CHRYSTALLIZED for ME, I shared them with our elders.
....They prayed, pondered, and TESTED the ideas and, ultimately saw them as God's will for Oak Hills.

But they DID NOT, COULD NOT HAVE searched the Scriptures. If you can PRAY for new revelation then Jesus the Christ (full Deity) died in vain. Elders are commanded to "teach that which has been taught." I suspect that they know that Max has them by sensitive places: Max leaves and, Ooops! there goes Oak Hills which has been the TROUBLER in Zion for half a century: just in time for the end times.

Both Paul and Peter wrote their EYE WITNESS events and their encounter with Jesus Christ. They CLAIMED that the Word had been validated by the SUPERNATURAL SIGNS. Therefore, if you FOLLOW anything not recorded for our instruction you OPEN the sheep fold and allow the WOLVES or false prophets to get in. IT IS AN absolute MARK of a false prophet to go beyond what is written.

Under the penalty of violating the command to GIVE AN ANSWER for all of the sowing of Discord, either Charles Prince, the elders, or Max Lucado MUST give account by letting us read Charles vision which contradicts everything written from the Fall from heaven to the end-time Babylon harlot loaded up by STAFF INFECTION which infects a plague using craftsmen, singers, musicians, and instrumentalISTS.

The PsalmODIA, fluteISTS, harpISTS are the sorcerers in the book of Revelation. Without exception, the Greek world identifies them as PARASITES along with the rhetoricians who care less for the Word as it has been written.

I directed you to the site which DOES NOT LIE:

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#three

Rusty said, "Uh, if you could first pray for me, because ... ah ... you know ... the TONGUES is his, not mine. And, uh, and when the "SPIRIT of PROPHECY" comes upon me I have to STEP BCK and let the Holy Spirit worketh [sic] in me. So if you could just EXTEND YOUR FAITH towards me and just ask God for his perfect word to RISE up in me (voice, We do).

And your doing it. Gotta see it from your perspective- not ours. And so the Lord says, I am doing a GOOD THING. The Lord said, I've had MY hand upon this CHURCH for many, many years. O. many, many years. I've brought thee through suffering. I've brought thee through persecution. I've brought thee through changes. I've brought thee through REORGANIZATION (with Don Finto as the sole leader). I've brought thee through the very depths of hell many times. But I was faithful.

Max Lucado came as a PROPHET to pronounce his blessing on Don Finto and his organization claiming to be THE apostle for all of the churches. ASK MAX.

Our Ear Witness: "Now, fast-forward to April 22, 1997. The scene: A Nashville Hotel banquet room. The purpose: To get Nashville ready of the 1997 JUBILEE. The chairman of the meeting: Rubel Shelly, preacher for the Woodmont Hills Church in Nashville. The speaker: MAX LUCADO, preacher for the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio. An honored guest: DON FINTO, preacher for the Belmont Church in Nashville.
....The speaker of the hour, Max Lucado, in his introduction, said, "Don Finto is my HERO." So, there you have Shelly, Lucado, and Finto-birds of a feather flocking together. These men-Shelly and Lucado-are either as much of a goose as Finto, or they are laughing in their sleeves. I cannot tell which. In either case, it is inexcusable."

Max blew it in 1997 and I got out of the doghouse after a decade of crying "wolf."

http://www.piney.com/WinBapt.html

No one doubts that you baptize but EVERYONE knows that it is not remotely CHRISTIAN BAPTISM. It is the Baptist or Pagan Believer's Baptism as, in the words of Max, A "PLEDGE" to God that you will be GOOD! Like, Wow.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

I have updated the New VISION Max had. He claims to choose words VERY CAREFULLY. Therefore, it is more than interesting that the key words Max uses could not have been better chosen by Abaddon himself. Many of them are CONTROL words.

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Creed.html

Ken Sublett

Ken, I am not sure that this site is meant as a forum for lengthy discussion or not, but let me just make a few observations.

First, it is obvious to anyone who knows what is going on at Oak Hills that much of what you write is supposition, assumptions and just plain false.

Second, rather than challenging Charles Prince to a debate, why don't you take the time to call him, or call the church office and ask for a copy of the position paper which he prepared several years ago on the subject of instrumental music. I am sure that copies are still available. (210) 698-6868.

I hope that all who read this will take the time to read the links you have provided in your response. That will clear indication to all of the background from which you come. To equate Max's statement that "Oak Hills is on the verge" of great things to a "penis" (along with graphic pictures to back up your statement) is ..... well, I can't think of a good word here, other than sick. (Sorry, folks that is Ken's word, not mine.)

Ken, I do not understand why you did not answer my question about which congregation you attend. The only reason I can think for you not answering this question is that you, in fact, do not attend a congregation of the Lord's body. I am curious if this is a correct assumption?

Tom

I am quoting published articles, creeds or VISIONS from Oak Hills or the sermons or books of Max. For those who may want to read the Ear Witness which makes me a liar, click on the following link and request the tape:

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#three

If you can't bear the thought that they come from Oak Hills then maybe you should show some spiritual courage and begin to question those who are DISCORDING the whole brotherhood. You may want to define the OAK HILLS pagan baptism if it is the same as Max Lucado's baptism where neither "faith, repentance, confession or baptism" has anything to do with out salvation. His is a radical, Calvinistic Baptist pagan baptism which was INVENTED in1525 by Zwingli. Could you answer that, please.

I don't want a debate: just publish the FOUNDATION upon which you are building a MUSICAL WORSHIP when history knows that music as "religious" was STAFFED by a homosexual and emasculated priesthood. Why, is the simple question, do you pick as your LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM that which has always repulsed spiritual people. I won't debate the article, but like the WHITE PAPER from Farmer's Branch just quote the Bible to prove that every DOGMATIC justification to the "audience" is a falsehood.

Your statement is FALSE. What I said in response to Max's pretensions to HOSTING worship is that the word points directly to PARASITES who hosted the pagan religions. Worship is TOTALLY in the place of MY SPIRT as it gives heed to the Words of God. Jesus said it, I believe it, Jesus died for it, I accept it and intend to pay no PARASITES to "provide" an opportunity for me to worship. How terminally arrogant. For the truth seekers, here is what I said of the HOSTING using professional musicians:

Barbit-ôidos , on, singing to the barbiton, Luc.Lex.14.

With the same meaning:

kômôido-loicheô , play the PARASITE, peri tina Ar.V.1318

I then used a VISUAL AID (without the big screen) to show you what the GREEKS pictured thousands of times as the PARASITE BARBARIANS playing the BARBITON. They were always NAKED, always PERVERTED and PERVERTING.

The issue isn't ken: the answer is what does the Bible say. You may interpret the Bible by Max, but I only care what Jehovah- Saves says as full Deity with no SEPARATED spirit person to speak to Max. Are you STAFF INFECTION? that is relevant, self-serving and a conflict of interest which will keep you running with the bands which will go back into Sheol according to Revelation 18.

Max is being LED to repeat ancient pagan concepts of religion as control. I will just have to keep on showing you dirty pictures of what God would see if He even bothered to acknowledge worship which is not in the PLACE of the human spirit, one priest at a time in the Most Holy place in darkness and quiet: the closet Jesus ABSOLUTELY COMMANDED. The hosts and leaders were always rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers, musicians and Craftsmen: pharisees, scribes, hypocrites: parasites all. Naked before a holy God.

Just ask the secretary to mail or post your CREDO about instrumental music and I won't debate: I will just quote Scripture to prove that it is 100% intentional lies--no literate person can be CONFUSED about this issue. For your information, Tom, the a cappella charismatics don't like me any better than the instrumental charismatics. That gives me great comfort.

Ken

Tom, I don't mind lengthy discussions. Please point me to Ken's post where he uses the phallic imagery, and I'll delete it.

Ken, please tone down your language and focus your discussion or I'll do some serious deleting of posts. I must confess I found your posts wearisome, and I'm probably closer to your position that to Tom's. I don't know how Tom had the patience to read them.

Tom, I must say that your comment about Max not having much input on the music question surprises me, since the pdf on the site states that the position paper, as I remember it, is based upon, if not practically the text of, a sermon of Max's.

I was surprised to see this interchange, though not displeased, but might wish for a healthier discussion of the issues involved, especially on the part of those not supportive of Oak Hills's changes.

Randall,

The specific link to which I was referring was the "Max Lucado - Creed" link which Ken inserted towards the end of his note. About 80% towards the bottom of that page (No. 10) is the reference to which I alluded. The specific picture is a bit above that but most of Ken's links contain pictures that would not be allowed in most books. (outside of the Red Light District of Amsterdam, anyway)

The study that I was referring to regarding instrumental music was the one that the Elders undertook in 1999. I believe that Max's remarks you referred to was his desire to see an instrumental service, at least in some fashion - that would have been relating to events of this summer.

I am not an apologist for Max. I was at Oak Hills before he became the minister. There are aspects of this this I do not agree with as well. My purpose was only to provide information where possible from someone who is there on a weekly basis and stop, or at least refute, some the totally nonsensical information that was coming from Ken. (i.e. Max speaking in tongues.)

Randall, one of the missionaries that Oak Hills supports is Dennis Downing in Recife. Ken has also made quite disparaging remarks about Dennis and I was just curious about his standing among Brazilian missionaries. I know that Oak Hills has supported Dennis for several years and his reports have been very interesting on his work in Brazil. Just interested in feed back from other sources. Thanks for your help.

Tom

Tom and Ken, I have deleted Ken's post with the offensive link to his page containing the pics and remarks Tom mentioned. I'm probably less squemish about these things than most people, but I certainly wouldn't want my daughter clicking over to them. She probably wouldn't have waded through all that dense text in the first place, but in the interest of wholeness, I chose to delete it. If there are any other such remarks here or links to remarks/pics, they'll go the way of all the earth as well, and quickly at that.

Tom, The first time Dennis came to Brazil, in 1985, I believe it was, he stayed in my house. We developed a good friendship then which continues today. I've stayed in Dennis's house on two different occasions when I went to Recife to teach. Several years ago, Dennis and I collaborated on a couple of writing projects. So I know Dennis fairly well. Nobody has a heart as good and a life as godly as his. Nobody is as concerned for the kingdom of God as he. I have talked with Dennis about some of the things happening at Oak Hills and expect we'll talk further, since we have some different views about it. As far as his standing among the other missionaries, I assume it's good. (I don't know what Ken has written and don't really want to know.) Dennis went recently to another city to teach about prayer, by invitation of the mission team in that location. Personally, I would that every missionary had the integrity, thoughtfulness, and cultural sensitivity that he has. He's one of the people I most respect.

Ask Tom to support his slander. The postmodern paradigm of the NEW CHURCH does not believe that it is lying if it advances their cause. With about 6,000 visits yesterday I have no time for children.

I wrote, and Tom Knows it,

"Dennis Downing misses the point that Paul DID NOT SAY: 'I have decided to PREACH only Jesus'." To KNOW only Jesus meant that Paul had to CRUCIFY himself and HIS opinions. This would force him to preach whatever Jesus had revealed." Period!!!

Isn't that horrifying? I then linked to his article at Heartlight

I have no knowledge that Dennis is a missionary anywhere and I think that you are enabling Tom's lies and his friends pile on. If I cannot Quote Dennis, good bad or ugly, the SHEPHERDING or DISCIPLING dilema is in full sway. I am astounded that people try to HIDE the exact picture of what the TEAM was trying to do to Jesus: that is Biblical and to hide it isn't nice.

Tom can supply the LINK where I make ONE quotation by Dennis simply because I found him on the internet teaching the common thene that Paul claimed to TEACH only Christ and Him crucified.

Ken, over and out

Ken, what slander did I commit? Without taking the time to find the exact quote, you stated in one of your links that Oak Hills missionaries were splitting the church in Brazil. Dennis Downing is the only Oak Hills missionary in Brazil therefore, I made the assumption that you were referring to him. If you do not remember that statement and would like for me to take the time to do that, I will do so.

Randal, thanks for the information. You have verified what I have observed over the years about Dennis.

Tom

Ken, the quote that I was referring to was in your article entitled "Shepherding Max Lucado Oak Hills," in which you state (about halfway down the article):

"THE COUNTRY OF BRAZIL IS SPLITTING AS IT IS DRIVEN BY OAK HILLS MISSIONARIES!" (caps yours)

Again, Dennis Downing is the only missionary from Oak Hills in Brazil. I guess the ball is in your court Ken.

Tom, I haven't read Ken's material, and I'll admit to not feeling much affinity with his writings. Here is an item, however, that may be feeding Ken's fire. The church in Natal has split; the missionary there, XYZ [edited out], according to what I read on one site, grew up, apparently, at Oak Hills. He, from what you say, is evidently not supported by Oak Hill, I can't really say. It does appear he's in the middle of the cause there, from what I pick up. Now, one case does not a conspiracy make. But it is disconcerting, still.

Randal, I have never heard of XYZ. I do not think he is supported by Oak Hills, unless he has been added recently, nor am I aware of a missionary by that name who grew up at Oak Hills. I will check into that further. I am leaving on a business trip to Europe tomorrow for a week, so I will be out of touch for a bit. Probably will not find out any information until I return.

I have gone back and checked the Oak Hills website and I forgot about Bryan and Jannet Carruth being missionaries in Natal. I know Bryan and would be very surprised if he were involved in instigating any type of split. However, I would certainly be open to any input that you or anyone else in Brazil would have to offer.

Tom

Tom, that was my mistake. It was Bryan C. I had in mind. I have erased the other name from both our posts, so as to avoid involving anyone else here inadvertantly ... Have a good trip. Randal

http://www.piney.com/Dennis.Downing.html

Randal, back from the trip, but a bit jet lagged. I will do some checking and see what I find out this week. I will talk with B's parents, they are friends of mine and see what is going on.

Tom

Tom, I usually find it takes me a week to recuperate completely from a inter-continental trip. Hope your back to normal soon. And it's time for me to get a report out for Sept. Something happened to the month of October -- somebody shortened it.